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lwaddict
Master Sanctuarian
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 4912
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 Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: P2 Workflow |
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Ok...so it would appear that enough of us are using the HVX with it's P2 cards now...and I'm obviously not getting the workflow down, as well as any of us would like to.
So here's the thread, let's discuss it.
My problem is stuttering and staggering while trying to watch the footage upon filming...I can see it clearly enough but the worry about whether or not the sound is right haunts me to the point that I'm never sure if I got the shot and can move on.
Yeah, I can relax later when editing...that's when it's more easily viewable and I can always reforat to the point where it plays smoothly...just not on the set.
So...
what are you using?
specs?
workflow?
Anything at all.
I'm sure I'm not the only one having issues...nothing that's not worth going through to get this quality of footage, but the stress level can go down several hairs (who am I kidding? It can go down a full sheltlin pony!).
Hang in there,
I know I've been.
LW |
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FilmSail
Director / Writer
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 697
Location: Oakdale, CA.
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: |
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LW - On Little Red we were running the same type of workflow that Johnny mentioned on the other thread. We would have 2 P2's (actually 3 I think) and we immediately dropped one off when it was full for the workflow editor to dump.
Now unfortunately I didn't have my editor (or capable) person running that position so it was pretty much dumping and putting into Final Cut.
As for all the specs I hope TK comes in on this because it was his system. Both the workflow and the equipment. But I went out and bought an external that was attached to his laptop (MacBook Pro I think).
But it is totally the way I would like to work all my shoots, though with an editor to be rough cutting as we work to catch things.. |
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Richard McClure
Sanctuarian
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 3698
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Although I like the ease of DV and getting a lot of BTS on tape, I'm gearing up and moving into the HD world for bigger projects, so this thread will definitely help me out.
System:
Intel quad core 3.0 1333 fsb
4 G's ram
Nvidia 8800 GTX 768mb video card
WinXP pro
Vegas 8 pro
HVX 200
2 - 8 gig P2 cards
Gateway laptop - duo core, 2 G's ram (only computer that has PCMCIA, but looking at getting a card slot for the tower)
5 external HDD's - about 750 gig total storage
This system should handle HD easily, the current stumbling block is in the file. Might be a Sony/Panasonic corporate thing but Vegas doesn't read the Panasonic version of the MXF files.
I've done some research on Raylight (conversion ap) and LW has had some favorable results with Speededit, also heard that Avid can read and convert the files.
I definitely need to get something to convert the files as I wish to keep my existing system and not have to change everything around.
This isn't a Mac vs PC thing, but I am interested in P2 to PC (windows) workflows, capturing, conversions, etc...
Mike, the Matrox Axio looks like a decent product, but also looks like it only works with Adobe, is that correct?
Also trying to get a round about pricetag and all I've seen so far is a system with the Axio HD for about $11,000 - yikes!
Haven't experienced on set shooting with the P2 yet, but what I'm gathering is that it definitely will have an affect on scheduling and extra crew members.
Johnny, what kind of logging system are you using?
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lwaddict
Master Sanctuarian
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 4912
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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John...
I understand that particular workflow,
however, McClure and I tried this during auditions and suffice it to say that we did succussfully get everything. That part went great.
The rotation of two cards, the dumping to the laptop and then onto a harddrive, all went well...
what I'm talking now is power...
what was used to actually watch the clips after the fact...
what are people using to back up these humongous files...
did they watch the clips on location or just collect them as we did...
how much power is enough or isn't enough?
video cards?
ram?
oh hell, PC/Mac?
specs?
favorite softdrink while waiting?
you name it...let's share it.
I'll toss into the fray that the slot used by the P2 card is fast becoming rare but wonderful for this...laptops being released now and already dominating the store shelves do not have this option. So...my new and very fast laptop wasn't able to help us out...and so we used a slightly older version for data collection, which worked out well...
but we couldn't watch the clips in realtime if our lives depended on it,
and so we couldn't be 100% certain we got what we needed.
We went the day on faith.
I've seen external adapters now but those things are getting pricey and fast. |
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FilmSail
Director / Writer
Joined: 25 Mar 2004
Posts: 697
Location: Oakdale, CA.
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| We must be on different wave lengths because I'm not just talking capture. I was able to watch the footage in the Final Cut timeline just fine. Again TK would be able to enlighten since this is his normal method. But after the mac and FC (which I know doesn't help you PC users) dump I know that we had to go through and flip the image. But storage and playback were fine. |
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Mike Conway
Senior Sanctuarian
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 1304
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard McClure wrote: |
Mike, the Matrox Axio looks like a decent product, but also looks like it only works with Adobe, is that correct?
Also trying to get a round about pricetag and all I've seen so far is a system with the Axio HD for about $11,000 - yikes! |
Yep, I spent 12K, for a turnkey tower, from Guy Graphics. Another budget write off!  That did include the complete Adobe CS2 suite of software, though.
Before anyone scoffs at that, I shoot in 1080 mode - no stuttering (because of 4 drive RAID array) - no file conversion - instantly playable on a stereo, SD or HD TV, in realtime. Like before, I can just play the movie from the computer, without rendering (aside from FX). I'm used to hardware assist and can not stand rendering, just to watch something. That is the main reason, I don't use Vegas 8, very much.
I'll repeat what I said on the IndieMeet thread. File deletion may interest you, if time, space and money are tight.
| lwaddict wrote: |
We're going to have to start a P2 workflow thread then...
the size of the files alone's been killing me but I really want to work with these as they do appear to be some of the best I've seen. |
Quit thinking about it and just try it. You may need to use Raylight for your files. Take a day or two and test out your workflow. P2 is awesome!!!! It's just getting used to it.
I shot EXILE and did both USB to laptop and capture to tower transfers, myself. At that time, the Panasonic P2 software wasn't even compatible with Windows Vista, so I couldn't just stick a card in my laptop. Even with no dedicated person and 2 forms of workarounds, it went fairly smooth. We didn't lose a single shot.
Generally, I transferred on lunchbreak and at sundown wrap up. I had a 4 gig and 8 gig card.
As for file size, I'm on a tight budget, so I deleted bad takes, on the spot. It's amazing how much space you save doing this!! Even if you're not the cameraman, you can review every shot, immediately. (Easy digital playback, without the worry of rerecording over it!) EXILE ended up with less than 6 hours of principle footage, but with a healthy selection of varied angles! The whole movie fits on a 500 gig drive, which was backed up, so 2 drives. (Of course, most of that 5½ hours is quality takes.) For me, that's a great time saver and it means much less transferring and editing. If I didn't have to learn Vision Lab Studio and After Effects, it would have been done, long ago.
I agree about the Firestore. I wouldn't trust one, except on a mostly fixed position "event" or concert shoot. For filmmaking P2 cards are solid.
Otherwise, Mac is probably the way to go.
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lwaddict
Master Sanctuarian
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 4912
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, different wave lengths...
I'm talking specs bro.
Just the make of the system won't help...
TK??? Where are ya bro??? |
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Mike Conway
Senior Sanctuarian
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 1304
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, a simple solution to "stuttering playback". The HVX can hook up to a TV and you can play from the P2 cards. Or, you can just use headphones and the viewfinder and not even remove the camera from the tripod. No need to wait. Now, that they have 16 and 32 gig cards, you can shoot for a lot longer, without transferring.
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lwaddict
Master Sanctuarian
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 4912
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, that's a solution.
I worry about getting the shots and sound right with these things...
I mean, once you've dumped the card for the rotation, I'd like to be able to look it over before we call it a night for shooting.
So far we're looking at the smaller cards, mostly because I know I can get them...but that might mean we won't be able to stop production to watch the footage until we've rotated cards several times...and that takes me back to playing it off of what system we're using for dumping down to.
Another solution is having a workstation with us, but that requires a monitor, a tower, a keyboard, etc...I'd like to knock this down to a laptop.
Mike...yer a Mackie right? You using a laptop for this or the solution you just posted? |
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lwaddict
Master Sanctuarian
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 4912
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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By the way...John...your stuff is still rendering. LOL.
Looks great...I think it's coming out the way you wanted this round. Been viewing the frames as she goes.
McClure...I'm thinking yours will go faster because of the lack of water reflections but then again, I'm pouring clouds into yours. We'll see.
Back to topic...
I'm wondering if a 4gig RAM, Dual Core, Sata driven, NVidia using laptop might do the trick...
already looking into the few P2 adapters that are out there.
Panasonic has a system for this but I'm hearing weird things about it. Yikes, imagine losing the footage with no tape backups. |
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Mike Conway
Senior Sanctuarian
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 1304
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| lwaddict wrote: |
| Mike...yer a Mackie right? You using a laptop for this or the solution you just posted? |
I've never subscribed to the Mac religion. Or, are you talking about Mackie brand mixers? No, to both.
My Tower is a Dual Xeon, 4 drive raid, plus OS drive, running Win XP, Premiere CS2 and Matrox Axio LE. The Axio has a breakout box, which hooks up to the stereo and TV.
My laptop is a Toshiba Dual 2.0 Core. I hookup a Western Digital USB 2 drive to the laptop and store the footage on there.
It sounds like you'll be wading through hours of footage, because you don't delete bad takes. Read my above post - the raw footage from our 3 week shoot fits on one 500 meg drive. 1080 stores at one gig, per minute.
Those with money may not like the sound of that, but I feel I saved a lot in that area.
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Richard McClure
Sanctuarian
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 3698
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Yep, I spent 12K, for a turnkey tower, from Guy Graphics. Another budget write off! That did include the complete Adobe CS2 suite of software, though. |
Sounds like a very good system for HD and no scoffing here, maybe a bit of jealousy, but no scoffing... lol
File deletion is something I will have to work up to, or down to. I like going back over the footage and finding those quick unexpecetd shots that can be inserted here and there, like a head turn or reaction shot.
I've found out that I use a lot of different takes for the same scene, which of course have those blocking issues that were discussed in another thread and I can usually break up the takes with a quick shot so that continuity doesn't suffer so much. Those quick shots come from non-planned, unthought of captures a lot of the time, mostly BTS of someone making a face or moving the camera between positions and forgetting to turn it off, lol.
But that in itself is another workflow issue I need to tackle working with P2 cards, at least the 8gigs. Too bad the cards are expensive, it would be nice to have a couple 32's.
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http://www.indieshack.com |
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Mike Conway
Senior Sanctuarian
Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 1304
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard McClure wrote: |
| File deletion is something I will have to work up to, or down to. I like going back over the footage and finding those quick unexpecetd shots that can be inserted here and there, like a head turn or reaction shot. |
Understood on that point. Let me give you an example of where it was obvious. We did a tracking shot, following Jason and Reyna. For some reason, the camera would glitch, when we hit a bump. We shot about 8 or 9 takes. I kept the 3 smoothest ones, because the others were not useable. "DELETE" Right on the spot - I got rid of 6 bad takes. If I kept all of them, it would have meant scheduling an unneeded transfer, just to keep a bunch of garbage!
Other examples - an actor starts his lines and laughs. Any scene that requires hitting a mark, but is off. Unintended shaky cam or bad pans, tilts, zooms. There is a lot that can be discarded, without losing something useable.
Doing the math (one gig, per minute), I had about 420 gigs (or minutes). My script is 84 pages, which should also be the length of the movie. I imported a 5 : 1 ratio (5 times the length of the movie). Not bad, though I actually "shot" about 8 or 9 : 1. Some people are going to pull a Kubrick and shoot 40 takes. Like I said, that's for the rich. If there was something I learned from shooting 16mm film, was that you couldn't just shoot and shoot. If you get it right, on the first take, shoot a backup and move on to the next setup.
One thing interesting about the movie, RED COCKROACHES, was that the director never used the same angle, twice. He moved the camera, every time. I wouldn't go to that extreme, but getting a variety of angles will help mask continuity issues, especially if shooting a low ratio.
As for me, the more experience I obtain, the more I find myself getting closer to my subjects. (A newbie will usually keep it wide.) A closeup of a face is a nice way to cover up a wide shot of the actor's hands in the wrong place. Why take 10 takes of the same shot, just so you can allow for continuity? You can cover with less footage and varying angles.
Just some thoughts, for the more conservative style of P2 shooting.
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MDIFILM
Senior Sanctuarian
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 344
Location: Cleveland
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: |
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As I mentioned on my previous thread (sorry for hijacking Mike's Indiemeet thread), we usually use laptops to dump the files.
before I continue, I use PCs and all my computers have Adobe CS3 which natively read mxf files without any need for conversation, on the PC arena, for dumping we use P2 Viewer which comes free, and we also use it to view the footages when it is dumped to the hard drives and listen to the audio.
Like Mike said, you can also review the audio by connecting the hvx200 into a monitor or if worst case, playback on the machine and listen to it, I don't think audio would be your major issue since there are many ways to listen to the result.
I find it extremely more enjoyable to use P2 card workflow, now I realized I might just also get an adaptor for my desktop so I can easily read P2 cards (cost about $15) to ease up dumping of files when work on studio.
We decided, to ease our perspective and unify our workflow, here's what we have and how we arrange it.
We have 3 HVX200, each with their own tripod, laptop (a basic one that has a pcmcia card slot - not the express card slot), each with 500GB external USB hard drive, each with a 16GB P2 card. (BTW, I put in the old AE Pro 7 with a plugin to do live chromakeying testing so we can see how greenscreen lighting affect the subject in real time)
We color code each set, one is GREEN (which will be owned by Jeff Yanik), one is RED (which is owned by Peter Sampson) and one is BROWN (which owned by me)
so, when we are at a project, we decide which format to do the project on, and set up the cameras, the script supervisor will then carry her Mac Laptop with a program she created using I think Filmsomething Pro. which it can be sorted by file name, color code, scene, what not.
She will type into the laptop for each shot we do, we use the TC code which runs continuously unless you reset it, so she would use that code as well in the log. At break, or when the card is fulled, it is dumped to the computer, while we set up for the next shot/scene.
After it is transfered, we view it using P2 Viewer (and yes, you can also view each shot if needed but usually that's when the cameras are connected to our LCD 14" monitors, so we can immedialy view the footages without taking the set down).
If I like the shot I would tell the script supervisor to note it on the log so it is available when viewing.
Since we have 3 cameras, it gets confusing during post production, the report log helps a lot (an example is here http://www.mdifilm.com/free/camerareport.pdf )
For audio, we usually, like mentioned above, taken cared by playback and listen carefully by 2 people to see if every audio is there, or if it is possible to be fixed in post (don't do this too often unless you KNOW what you are doing). Worst case, ADR (80% of The Rapture were ADRed).
Our dumping is basic, the P2 Operator (which we have 1 per machine) or when it's a group shoot, usually 2 for the group in case one has to go to the bathroom, the other is famiilar with it). He/She just use P2 Viewer to do the dumping, and then pull the P2 card out of the laptop, check to see if it's on the hard drive, rename the folder in the hard drive (from CONTENTS to RED-Scene 12-5-19-2008 for example, so we know it's from RED camera, scene # and if need to add shot # whatever and the date.) (P2 Viewer or Adobe CAN read the files directly from the renamed folder without you needing to RENAME it back to CONTENTS to work)
The P2 Operator takes the cards back to the camera operator and tell them to format the P2 card for usage, this way, the P2 Operator do not have to deal with this and accidently erase the wrong folder/drive/etc.
When there is a break or end of the day (when everyone is cleaning up) the P2 Operator sits with the script supervisor and they'll compare notes, the P2 Operator tells the SS the name of the file (clip name and the TC via P2 Viewer) and the SS notes those info according to her notes and the TC that she had logged previously, so now everything matches.
As for backup, depending on the format you are shooting on, either DVD-R, Dual Layer DVDs or hard drives (they are cheap, less than $100 for a 500GB drive), which format last long? that's still debatable, some likes DVD or Blu-ray or optical drive, some prefer Hard drives (which I use more)
So, if everything is what I like, I dumpt the footages to my editing computers and start working immediatley, while using the external drive to make another copy for archieving and then erase whatever it is on the color coded external drive (since that's an onsite hard drive usage only).
Like Mike, it took us many time of working on it to create OUR workflow, it might not be right for everyone, but it's a workflow that we've worked and liked and we had trained a few people to just doing these so our jobs can be concentrated on directing, editing, and/or other.
Hope this help 
PS: The raw footage for The Rapture was about 1T file size, and then another 1T with all edited stuff *sigh*
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The Rapture
Sci-fi/Anime-Styled feature film
http://www.rapturethemovie.com
Jean Claude the Gumming Zombie
A comedy zombie film
http://www.thegummingzombie.com |
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lwaddict
Master Sanctuarian
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 4912
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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First off...
Mike...
in advance...
I had nothing to do with the breakin and/or mysterious U-Haul trucks
going to and from your home.
Must've been McClure...
but not me.
Yeah...I'm a little jealous of that stack. Very nice.
And thank you for specs...
even the software use was helpful.
Ready for another solution?
Just tested OnLocation (formerly of Serious Magic) and was able to record to the P2 card AND get the footage recorded directly to a cheaper laptop harddrive for immediate viewing. They've got me doing a lot more video shooting and editing here at work now so we got a loaner for the week...it's love I tell ya. 1080p is awesome but what a painful learning curve it must be without a support group like this forum eh?
I'm feeling much better now.
The Adobe CS3 Master Collection rocks and has a couple of the tools I've used in the past including Serious Magic's software, as they were acquired...OnLocation and Ultra, both excellent.
But let's not stop...
we may be helping each other and others as well.
Loving this thread.
But again...
Mike...
I had nothing to do with the great McUHaul Caper.
Nope.
Nada.
LOL. |
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